Listener Reflections

This is your place to publicly comment on the topics and issues addressed in Speaking of Faith programs. React in a personal way, and put into words what this program meant to you.

Submit Your Reflection about "Pagans Ancient and Modern."

Disappointed (June 19, 2008)
I just listened to the Pagans show, and I must say that I was a little disappointed by it. As a Pagan priest I do have to say that there is a lot more to Paganism than just thinking that sites like Glastonbury and Stonehenge are cool. Nature and sacred landscape are important parts of many forms of Paganism, but it is certainly not everything.

Many people who get into Paganism don't even do so because they love nature and to assume so is a fallacy. For example many followers of Asatru may love nature but most seem to get into it primarily because it is the religion of their ancestors before Christianity. Some come to Paganism because they *gasp* believe in magic.

I feel that the hosts on the show seemed to gently mock those that do. That may have not been their intention, and I can understand the host doing so, but I believe that the so-called expert that you brought on should at least be someone who can entertain the notion and not just reduce very real spiritual beliefs to child-like yearnings for understanding. It may seem crazy to believe in such bold things like magic but it really isn't as far-fetched as people think. Thousands of people get tarot card readings every day and many more check their horoscope daily, even if they look "just in case."

While I respect Mr. Ivakhiv's beliefs and his work reconnecting with his culture, I think that you probably should have brought on someone who actually practices and believes in their Pagan beliefs not as just some cultural or environmental exercise. However I do want to thank you guys for doing a show on Paganism to show that we do actually exist. Good luck to you and to your future shows.

Jason Durham
Malden, MA (WBUR, 90.9 FM)

Encore! (February 19, 2007)
Congratulations on your wonderfully informative and provocative interview with Adrian Ivakhiv and good job on the accompanying Web site — great content, cool photos, and thought-provoking interview clips! I plan to require my class on World Religions here in Geneva to listen to your program, as it's really good stuff. Encore!

Megan Paterson-Brown
Geneva, Switzerland (Listens to SOF OnDemand)

Paganism and Sense of Place (February 19, 2007)
I have allowed my life's direction, literally, to be determined by my connection to the land(s) where I have ended up living in North America. I have only recently begun to try to understand this in a deeper, spiritual sense.

"Place" and the spirituality connected with it are the subject of many so-called nature writers, and in fact, is a genre of writing. Reading from this arena of deeply connected beings to the places they live and write about has brought me again, and again, a sense of connectedness, but also of being a part of a greater society of people who understand that as organic beings. It is with the organic that we are most connected, and through that vessel, no less sacred than any church's holy grail, we feel connection with the Sacred and Spirit, the Source.

Your program was the tip of the iceberg and I would enjoy more on this subject, especially with everyone's sense of "place" being disturbed so fundamentally by the changes threatened with global climate change. Each day I struggle to keep my roots strengthened, moistened, connected to the place I inhabit, live in now. The changes are becoming more rapid, even hurt to witness. Programs like this are good, but don't go far enough. Nevertheless, thank you. More please, more.

Allison Teague
Newbury, VT (WVPA, 88.5 FM)

Where Are the Black People? (February 19, 2007)
I just watched the beautiful SoundSeen slideshow. I was struck by the absence of people of African descent.

Annette Henry
Tacoma, WA (KXOT, 91.7 FM)

Missed the Point (February 18, 2007)
I have my degree in Western Civilization and Christian Theology and have been studying Paganism for the past 10 years. I believe your professor missed the point about the "christianization" of St. John's Day. It's actually the Feast of the birth of St. John the Baptist (June 24th on the Western calendar) opposite of Jesus's birthday (December 25). The biblical passage read for the feast is that "I (John) must decrease will he (Jesus) must increase. It mirrors the traditional pagan festivals of the solstices. In this case of St. John's day, the days have reached their peak and now begin to get shorter, thus beautifully uniting Christianity and Paganism.

Dan Stutesman
Portland, OR (KOPB, 91.5 FM)

Reverence of Nature (February 18, 2007)
Thank you so much for your insightful program on Paganism. I'm not a practicing Pagan, but i think it is obvious that our society needs to reevaluate it's connection to nature on a physical level, and I believe on a spiritual level.

It was mentioned that Pagan ideas are a mixed bag and what it is can't be tied down. I don't think this was said in a negative way, but traditional religions usually cite this as evidence of inauthenticity. But I believe this is the case because these spiritual beliefs and practices are authentic. A traditional religion can be explained in a certain book, and that book is said to be the truth. Ideas which express living spiritual energy and the infinite manifestations of God can be expressed many ways and touch many different people. How would one say what the exact format in which love should be expressed is? This is not to say that authentic Paganism doesn't have long-standing traditions and guidelines. I don't think Paganism or other spiritual practices which revere nature deny the spiritual truths found in traditional religions, but revere all manifestations of these truths.

Bryan Sudbury
Salt Lake City, UT (KUER, 90.1 FM)

Union with the Land (February 18, 2007)
The discussion in today's program was one clearly outside the topic of faith, as most religions are concerned with faith — that is why we who focus on the Land/Earth/Terrafirma hold this to be real and beyond belief systems and doctrine. You tended to see Paganism as faith based. It was absurd to listen to you try to equate Hollywood, magic, and the extraterrestrial in the focus of The Land. The afore subjects are not real to life — each deal with fantasy. These stated subjects exploit people, the same as religions. Persons like yourself that are faith based tend to miss the meaning of the very ground on which you stand.

B.J. Luchion
Camden, MS (Listens to SOF OnDemand)

Outside-In (February 18, 2007)
First let me thank you for approaching this subject in any form. I had assumed that your series title, "Speaking of Faith," would preclude any discussion of my religion, which is unrelated to "faith" or "belief" as these words are commonly used. As a polytheist, I honor the ancient gods and goddesses, give thanks and pray to them. I do not "believe in" or "have faith in" them — turns of phrase peculiar to the three monotheisms.

Understandably, you addressed the topic of "paganism" from the outside. It was clear from your questions that you see it as "other," and that you were exploring largely unfamiliar ground. Unfortunately Professor Ivakhiv, regardless of his personal stance, was led by your questions to a similarly distanced view. Except when touching on his own ethnic background, he spoke almost entirely as an anthropologist of Paganism. He managed to say many wise and useful things, about belief for instance, and about music as magic. But the eclectic nature of your questions coupled with the objectivity of his answers left an impression of a religion without passion or focus. The subject, as introduced, was impossibly broad, and the treatment — given your perspective and his — could not avoid being superficial.

Here is my suggestion: Why not explore one of the specific individual expressions of "paganism" from the inside? Why not ask a practicing Wiccan, or Druid, or Greek polytheist to speak personally about his or her religion? This is how you have approached the more familiar "faiths," and to good effect. Why not try it with mine?

Frederick Kettering
Minneapolis, MN (KNOW, 91.1 FM)

Just Scratching the Surface (February 18, 2007)
I enjoyed the Pagans Ancient and Modern podcast. A couple of comments. In terms of scientific credibility, there should be no more trouble in believing in the Resurrection of Jesus, his changing water into wine, etc. than the appearance of fairies out of nothing or other Arthurian beliefs. Just in terms of eyewitness reporting, more people attest to seeing UFOs than the resurrected Jesus. I am neither a believer nor denier of UFOs or fairies. I am fond of reminding students that often we fall into the trap of what my religion has are miracles but your religion has magic.

Regarding sacred space, in my own research, I postulated an "architectural grammar" that governed the construction of prehistoric earthworks in the Ohio Valley some 2000 years ago. That makes sense. We might imagine that the Native Americans "read" the elements as a mnemonic device for a host of reasons. What remains puzzling to me was the accidental discovery that these numerous earthworks called hilltop enclosures were constructed on plateau like hilltops with azimuth orientations that varied less than 10 degrees across several hundred miles of space. Therefore, certain landforms were inherently suitable for earthwork construction and others not, simply based on the orientation of that landform. What makes a place sacred to those who left no readily discernable explanations is enigmatic. We may discover the remaining visible patterns that so often only scratch the surface of intended meaning.

Robert Connolly
Jackson, MS (Listens to SOF Podcast)

St. John's Wort (February 18, 2007)
I heard that St. John's Wort was named in earth-centered spirituality. Its bright red flowers traditionally blossomed on the feast day of St. John the Baptist — a day of community activities.

Nancy Stier
Apple Valley, MN (KNOW, 91.1 FM)

Connecting the Natural (February 18, 2007)
Wanted to thank you for doing a show on ancient/modern Paganism. I felt you did an excellent job getting past most of the misunderstanding and really brought to light that Paganism/Witchcraft etc. is not a new idea but a very ancient one connected to the land of our ancestors' human survival. I totally agree with your guest that it's about connecting to the natural world and seeing magick in us and all around us instead of looking outward to find it.

Stephanie Homer
St. Louis, MO (KWMU, 88.1 FM)

Nature and Monotheism and Antisemitism (February 18, 2007)
The Jewish calendar and Jewish holiday is based on rural agricultural seasons. We don't recognize it because it is based on the agricultural seasons in Israel and Israel has two seasons, a rainy season and a dry season. He [Ivakhiv] talks about sacred ground, but he doesn't. Ivakhiv completely ignores this and assumes that all agricultural references have to be European and Pagan. There is also a very dangerous side to this because the Ukraine has a long history of antisemitism that goes back to the Cossacks who murdered over 100,000 Jews. The left is certainly not free of antisemitism and neither is neo-Paganism in America. Jews didn't kill Jesus, they just killed the Goddess. Old wine in a new or a neo-bottle.

Susan Stein
Philadelphia, PA (WHYY, 91.0 FM)

The St. John in St. John's Day (February 18, 2007)
I'm surprised you didn't find the Christian origin of attaching St. John to the summer solstice (as you discuss in the very nice piece on paganism). The John is not the Gospel writer, but John the Baptist, whose feast day is June 24, six months before the observance of Jesus's nativity, consistent with the Gospel account about the spacing of their births — and consistent with your observations on the show. These days are purposefully set at the solstices and are anchors for the Christian liturgical year, as John, by some accounts, recognizing Jesus, says "my light will diminish as His increases."

Jeff Draine
Philadelphia, PA (WHYY, 91.0 FM)

My Gratitude (June 5, 2008)
I am so grateful for your intelligent, sensitive approach to this topic and your beautiful production of this program. I would wish for this kind of serious inquiry and respect to be more widespread in the media. Sadly, that is rare. I have forwarded your newsletter to many friends who are interested in neo-paganism, earth-based spirituality, Women's Spirituality and similar paths, secure in the knowledge that they will similarly enjoy this program as well as the generous supporting materials on your Web site and feel included and affirmed. Thank you so much!

Eva Yaa Asantewaa
New York, NY (Listens to SOF OnDemand)

Pagans and Christians Reconsidered (June 5, 2008)
Christianity might be helped by a revival of Paganism? Well, it might have been a progressive thought during the Woodstock era, but the times of changed and perhaps it should now be said, "Paganism might benefit from the ethics of Jesus of Nazareth." In today's America, it's the Christian organizations — both liberals and conservatives — that are active in responding to environmental problems like global warming and the problems caused by Hurricane Katrina. The Christians are still prominent in anti-racism work and in work for world peace and economic justice. Martin Luther King's influence is remembered in many places. Meanwhile, much of Paganism seems to be caught in the playfulness of the 1970s. The gatherings and the Web sites are colorful and fun and they may still shock some of the church ladies in rural Arkansas, but, gosh, folks, nowadays, the Boy Scouts and some of the Christian evangelicals are leading the way in environmental protection work. Among the Celts, Paganism and Christianity merged a long time ago into what is now called "Celtic spirituality." Celtic Christianity has elements of pre-Christian and Christian teachings. The best of both worlds.

Robert Murphy
Falmouth, MA (Listens to SOF OnDemand)

Well Done (April 30, 2006)
This has been my favorite SOF yet. I found the issue of Paganism extremely interesting. Being from suburban Minnesota, I don't often get to hear about things like this. But the ancient times intrigue me immensely, so I wanted tom applaud the choice of Paganism for an SOF topic.

Adrian Ivakhiv really brought up some fantastic points. I really liked hearing about the connection you just feel for some places, like Stonehenge in the United Kingdom. It made me wonder if we would feel these connections if we didn't know that these were sacred places. If no one suspected that these were ancient, spiritual landmarks would we still feel connected to them? Is this connection internal? I think the connection could be internal as well as external. Some places you have never been and know nothing about sometimes still have that connection. But it would just be interesting if there was something internal that made us feel that connection to certain ancient places. As others have said, I feel that it would have been even more interesting to have more information about Paganism. For example, customs and traditions of the modern day Pagans. But the music selected for this SOF was fabulous. Once again I really enjoyed the SOF, and I hope that there are more like this one in the future.

Leah Gronquist
Champlin, MN (Listens to SOF OnDemand)

Loved Your Closing Line (April 27, 2006)
I have just found your Web site, which was sent to me by a friend in the USA. I really enjoyed reading your overview of Paganism, based on Adrian Ivakhiv's book. I loved your closing line: "I leave this program with the intriguing notion that a 21st-century Pagan revival might, ironically, help Christianity — and Christian-influenced cultures like ours — recover layers of original depth and humanity." I have something related to tell you about — our award-winning film "Time after Time," which is a celebration of the great heritage of ancient Celtic, American, and Australian peoples.

It is very interesting, and inspiring, to see that sacred themes are becoming relevant even beyond the traditional bounds of religion today. Yesterday I attended a climate change conference in Melbourne, Australia, for government planners in the state of Victoria, Australia. My partner and I created a 10-minute film for the opening, excerpts from our film, which was also screened in part for the opening and closing ceremonies at the UN Conference on Climate Change in Montreal last November.

After the conference, several people approached me and asked if they too could screen the short film at their own conferences. We are thrilled to see our work being used to awaken a positive attitude to ancient and sacred heritage, and, even more important, setting an encouraging mood for a gathering of professionals who must deal with serious issues related to managing increasing impacts of climate change. There is a short preview of the film "Time after Time" on our Web site: http://www.lyrebirdmedia.com/.

Maireid Sullivan
Melbourne, Australia (Listens via SOF OnDemand)

The Problem with Pagans (April 27, 2006)
Paganism has indeed gotten an appalling name over the years. People have always seemed to mistake Paganism with something that is in every respect unchristian. Moreover people commonly associate Paganism with something wicked and sinful. Upon exploring the roots if Christianity it becomes natural to see how this information was distorted. The roots of the Christian faith comes from the same earth-oriented customs and rituals that the Pagans are accused of practicing to this day. A line does indeed need to be drawn between the new age Paganism that involves forms of spirituality involving crystals and the like, and old-time Paganism that brings people back to the earth and its cycles.

At the time of Moses and his commandments, a tie was supposed to be broken between these rituals and the God of Moses. This hardly resulted in people picking one over the other though. Some of the followers of Moses did indeed continue to exalt the Gods of the Canaanites and continued to put into practice the rituals of praying to the Gods of the seasons and most notably to the Gods of fertility. They saw the world surrounding them and needed a spiritual justification for the nature of that world. There's something inherently Socratic about finding a spiritual correlation with the earth.

Believing in the presupposition that God does indeed exist, it's not hard to see that a relationship with the earth is at the very least a link with he who created it. Whether it is just the one or many Gods believed responsible is inconsequential. The fact is that it is only natural that people bond with the only tangible evidence of God they have. It's imperative to remember that the idea of Pagans as heretics results from them simply not being Christian in name. It makes no inference as to the validity of their customs. Christian doctrine simply states that you're either with us or against us. This mentality has resulted in many diverse sects of Paganism and other types of religions being named evil and immoral in the light of the Orthodox Christian church.

This stigma often results in half truths and an unwarranted media bias regarding these religions. Also the fashionable and often commercial side of these new age Pagans tends to outshine the true forms of Paganism, which in many cases have their roots in concepts that predate Christianity by many hundreds of years. If one is truly attempting to dissect these contrasting views one must first be taught to see the differences between them from an objective and historical point of view. Only in this approach, can the reality of Paganism truly be known.

Benjamin Osburn
Brooklyn Park, MN (KNOW, 91.1 FM)

Being Pagan (April 25, 2006)
I have been listening to your programs for a class and have really enjoyed them. I am one of those closeted Pagans. I was quiet about my faith because of the fear of the reactions from people. I celebrate the solstice and equinox quietly; I've been an organic gardener, even when it wasn't fashionable. I let part of my backyard grow wild for the wildlife it supports. Your program made me remember that it is okay to be a Pagan. There were many before me who celebrated as I do and understood that the earth and nature has balance and a cycle. Now that my class is over, I've signed up for the newsletter so I can be reminded that faith comes in many of varieties. Thanks.

Susan Schreurs
Columbia Heights, MN (Listens to SOF OnDemand)

Further Exploration (April 3, 2006)
I was fascinated by your latest program, but felt that your subject was perhaps too broad for the time allotted. I would have been interested to know much more about the specifics of how ecology and identity might intersect in new religious paths. Also, I felt that any serious discussion of some of the traditions and practices that he discussed needed also to be informed by additional scholarship in religious anthropology and ethnography. Within these disciplines (and others) are insights into the persistence of seasonal, community, and religious celebrations; their changing meaning through the historical experience of cultures; and their re-emergence in new, revitalized forms.

Susan Schreurs
Olney, MD (WETA, 90.9 FM)

Opening My Eyes (April 2, 2006)
Thanks for the great program on Paganism with Adrian Ivakhiv. It totally opened my eyes to a faith about which I now realize I held wholly mistaken views. Your non-judgmental approach is refreshing and allows a more facile acceptance of new material.

Jim Swenson
Portland, OR (KOPB, 91.5 FM)

Distinguishing the Overlapping Disciplines (April 2, 2006)
I had not known of Mr. Ivakhiv and his scholarship, and I thank you very much for your producing this show. As implied by some of the comments on the show, modern Paganisms are difficult to describe in concise language. You rightly pointed out that there is much overlap, both amongst the various Pagan paths as well as with other traditions. I must ask, though, that you consider the following as well. "New Age," as a label, is distinct from Paganism. Many confuse the two completely, so the most accurate statement, in my opinion, is that some Pagans partake of New Age concepts or notions, but not vice versa. New Age is closer to a cultural phenomenon, at least from the Pagan perspective.

There is also a very similar distinction between witchcraft and Wicca. Not all Wiccans practice witchcraft, not all who call themselves witches are also Wiccans. Again, Pagans draw a cultural line: witchcraft is literally what the second part of the compound word says, a skill that is practiced. It's spiritual components are what the witch wants them to be. See also Strega, Voudon, and Santeria. Finally, there is a growing trend (anecdotal) to use the phrase "modern Pagan(ism)" rather than "neo-Pagan(ism)." The former more accurately includes those who call themselves reconstructionists, such as the followers of Greco-Roman and Celtic traditions, and those who call themselves "heathens" instead of Pagans and hold to the traditions out of northwestern Europe and Scandinavia. Again, thank you. I always learn something from your shows.

Franklin Evans, Delaware Valley Pagan Network
Philadelphia, PA (WHYY, 91.0 FM)

Pagan and Christian Tradition (April 2, 2006)
Please recognize the true nature of the Catholic Christian tradition and it's inherent spirit of incarnation (all creation). The teachings and beautiful recognition in Saint Francis of Assisi's followers is an excellent example. The idea that Christian people are disconnected from the beauty of creation is a human condition, not an evolution of Christian practice and belief. Thank you for your excellent discussions and I am looking forward to growing with all the spirit your guests bring forth.

Marie Theresa Goihl
Rochester, MN (KZSE, 90.7 FM)

Teologia India (April 2, 2006)
In regard to the program on Paganism, the indigenous cultures of Mesoamerica (among others!) have melded "Pagan" — i.e., the pre-conquest traditions — with Christianity. There are, of course, also important sacred sites, like Teotihuacan and Xochicalco, at many of which Pagan religious observances continue. In the last 30 years or so, a movement has grown among Catholic priests and nuns to recognize and re-validate the continuing indigenous religions, called "Teologia India." As former Archbishop Samuel Ruiz, of San Cristobal, Chiapas (a strong supporter of the Zapatistas) wrote: "When Christopher Columbus came to the "New World," he did bring God with him, because God was already present in the Indian Religions." I have so far made five films about Indian theology — two of which are about Tepoztlan, Morelos, a sacred place that has become the New Age capital of Mexico because both of its landscape per se, and because of the continued presence of a pre-Conquest god, El Tepozteco.

Pacho Lane
Rochester, NY (WXXI, 1370 AM)

A Good Starting Point, but Let's Continue Forward (April 2, 2006)
A thought-provoking exploration, but one that has left us still on the surface of a very deep and interesting topic. Imagine, the very first person to offer his reflection [see Christopher Hatton's reflection below] on this program (and a wonderfully fresh and candid commentary it was!), had he instead been a participant, would have opened up quite a bit more territory. Another observation, perhaps related. I sympathized that Mr. Ivakhiv had to worry about being taken lightly by scientifically- or intellectually-minded persons for saying he is especially drawn to particular landscapes, without having a scientifically acceptable explanation. A sad state of affairs! Do we need explanations to prove that the things we experience are true?

Bob Salmon
Cranford, NJ (Listens to SOF OnDemand)

Gratitude and Some Misunderstandings (April 1, 2006)
I've been listening to your program every Saturday for some months now, and I'm very grateful that you touched on my religion — finally, I might say, but I've certainly found most of your shows utterly fascinating. I'm an American Neo-Pagan, specifically a Wiccan. I've been a Wiccan Priest for more than two decades, and I've practiced magic that entire time. As such I am a primary source on that topic, and on Wicca (and to some extent Neo-Paganism in general). I feel the need to make a couple of clarifications of things I think you may have misunderstood slightly.

Magic is not a set of false beliefs about the world. It is "the art of changing consciousness at will." Yes, we change our consciousness in an attempt to change the world around us, much as Christians use prayer — but just as not all prayer is for change in the world, there is also magic done in gratitude, adoration, even personal reflection. Your guest seemed to shrink from the idea of doing spells, but spells too are a religious practice. In Wicca they're the lesser magic, but the key point is that a spell is a symbolic act done in in a deepened state of consciousness. Again, while spells are distinct from prayer, they fill a similar place in our lives. Spells are for little things you want, or little things you want to change about yourself.

Finally, many Christians seem to use the words "faith" and "religion" interchangeably, but they are not synonyms. Wicca, at least as I practice it, is a religion but not a faith. It has no required factual (or factoidal) beliefs at all. It's a system of practices, an ethical code ("An it harm none, do as thou wilt," much harder to follow than it sounds), and a deep spirituality centered in the body. Faith is a gift. Not everyone has it. I do not have it, for example, and yet I am a deeply religious and intensely spiritual person. In Christianity, faith (or belief) is primary, and practices vary greatly; in Wicca, though our practices certainly vary, they're the primary thing, and beliefs change every time we enter or leave circle (because beliefs are part of consciousness).

Thanks for listening. It's a tribute to the respectful tone of your program that I felt it was worthwhile posting this commentary!

Christopher Hatton
Hoboken, NJ (WNYC, 93.9 FM)